A difficult question

Is Evil ultimately just an Illusion? – Insofar as to be captured within oneself, is the main illusion:
The Illusion of Separation, the actual evil…

What do you think?

About julienmatei
I feel an inner urge to express what I see, to communicate and share with others all these impressions. Often the things I see are there, not yet manifest, but waiting... to be observed, talked about, and embraced. These new insights need another approach, a more vivid curiosity... Due to fear and prejudice we prefer to see only "the official" truth - but THE OFFICIAL TRUTH IS DEAD - being dead, it has nothing to give... We can continue pretending Death is fascinating or... we can take the trouble to LIVE... THE NEW has no definition yet... Again, IT requires another "perception", the courage to apprehend everything differently, from a totally new angle, with new confidence and inquisitive touch. This blog is not about interesting concepts, it is about participation... finding new solutions, inspiration, togetherness.

49 Responses to A difficult question

  1. goldennuggetde says:

    Let me try …

    Yes, there is nothing which is really evil. It is only an illusion for the ego. Because suffering is one of the basic needs of it. But how would you suffer if there was nothing like the evil?

    When I watch people who are obviously dissatisfied with themselves, I can feel that they basicly know their inner fight is home made. But still they can’t stop it. Or let’s say, they could stop it if their ego let them do it.

    Eventually we’re going around in circles: it is always the ego which tells us those weird things like evil, suffering and wrong perception.
    So let the ego go for a while and let love be present.

    What do You think?

    Richard

    • phop247 says:

      I would have to respectfully disagree, at least with saying there is nothing which is really evil. I think killing is evil. That is a simple statement and I think the very act of killing is evil – and by killing I mean a human killing another human, which is usually called murder as I recognize certain species must kill to eat in order to survive, I do not think ego plays into this or at least it does not have to. Taking another human’s life, that very act, I would argue is inherently bad, or evil if you wish to use that word. The drama that tends to arise may be from the ego, but the recognition of the fact that whomever was murdered is a realization that something bad or evil occurred – this is just a fact. Unless what you call the ego is responsible for any sort of value judgement, then perhaps this may be egotistical in nature. However, I think even without the involvement of one’s ego, one would suffer from the knowledge of a loved one’s murder for example.

      Part of me is unsure of what you are saying Julien – would you disagree that individualism exists? Insofar as we are unique beings, with to one degree or another free will, our own mind, heart and soul, however much related to the rest of the Universe, are unique entities.

      You use the word separation a lot I have noticed, and I sense with a negative connotation. Although I tend to agree, I cannot accept that we are not individuals. Perhaps a good definition of what we mean when using this word is needed?

      Anyway, I wrote a lot – thoughts?

      Best,

      -Paul

      • goldennuggetde says:

        Hi Paul,
        thanks a lot for Yours. Your thoughts and arguments press me to think over what I’ve tried to say above. That’s good … even though it’ inconvenient 🙂

        When we talk or discuss those topics here, we’re beyond philosophical definitions most of the time. As I’ve found out for myself, using philosophy ends up with absolutely endless definitions and definitions for definitions. It’s more or less a scientific mess. (What a melodic rhyme)

        That’s why I try to avoid definitions as far as possible. The whole subject is so incredibly complex that you can’t really analyze it. Therefore we us spiritual expressions in order to get somehow nearer to the core of our being.
        A major statement within all that is: I’m the universe and vice versa. So there is individualism and there is none – absolutely simultaneous. That means also that all human beings are like one huge connected body. Krishnamurti was even more bold when he said: we all got one mind in common.
        I know I’m talking crisscross …… trying to get back to Your statements about the evil and the ego. Although I don’t like to use definitions I guess I have to ….. concerning the evil. Let me try it this way: evil is when love is missing completely.

        What do You think?

        Richard

      • phop247 says:

        Thanks for your words! I just have a few questions:

        First, why must spirituality be separated from philosophy? Please think this over, as I am sure you will anyhow, but I do not think the two must be separated. Is spiritual philosophy not possible? Julien, and anyone else, feel free to jump in here.

        Second, if definitions do not work, how is one supposed to understand another, especially if the two people have different ideas concerning the same term or phrase?

        And on evil, I would point out that, in my thoughts, complete absence of love does not necessarily mean evil, however likely or common evil may be in that situation. In other words, absence of love does not automatically mean or cause evil. I say this because one could be complete nihilistic or apathetic, or numb, anything along those lines. One could be empty but not evil. Unless emptiness is evil? This is where I would ask what evil is, what it means.

        However, upon stepping back for a moment, does evil even exist? I mean, a priori, does evil exist. I pose this question but then I think of the murder example, and I consider that to be inherently evil, a priori – without another person’s judgement that very act in and of itself is evil. Then again, why – why is this so? I mean, someone, somewhere along the line determined killing another human to be bad. This is so “obvious” nowadays this is taken for granted. I do not dispute this in that I too hold killing another to be wrong. My point is though that somebody determined, made the value judgement, that killing is bad. This makes sense to me, but I am still questioning how ti came into existence. Why? Why is killing bad? This could be a whole other post but I am very interested in this question.

        Back to the question of evil – the short answer is I am not sure. But I will say this, evil is a judgement, not a fact like the sky is blue. This involves ethics, saying we should or should not kill for whatever reason, etc. I think this should be explored more, but I will leave it at this for now.

        Great talk going here, let’s keep it up!

        Peace,

        -Paul

      • goldennuggetde says:

        Thanks for Your great comment. I’ll answer later on. Promised!

        Richard

      • phop247 says:

        No worries – take your time!

      • goldennuggetde says:

        Thank You. Since these are fundamental questions I’ve put them on an extra posting on my blog here: http://entkomplizieren.wordpress.com/2012/11/12/answers-to-paul/

        Thanks, Richard

      • phop247 says:

        Very good, I will be sure to check this out.

        Thanks,

        -Paul

      • goldennuggetde says:

        Thanks, Take Your time as well. There’s no hurry since these subjects have been discussed for at least thousands of years 🙂

      • julienmatei says:

        Paul,

        This is a huge subject-matter and making it short is quite a challenge, as no one has given me any satisfactory answer as to why human beings kill recklessly one another.

        Undoubtedly, killing is evil. But let´s leave aside Evil for a while and consider Fear instead.

        Now, Ego means basically isolation and isolation breeds fear. Ego must ensure its survival, which means that it constantly fears its own extinction – Death with other words.

        No evil-doer is really aware of this mechanism – subsequently I can only guess. It is basically about this: “I am so afraid of Life and Death, I am so afraid of my own projection in you”, so apart from the actual killing, all the murderers try TO KILL THEIR OWN PROJECTION OF THEIR FEAR in another, they chase away their own image…. It is something like – if I kill you, I am stronger, and killing you I outwit my own Death, I kill my fear of extinction…

        Further, there can´t be any any true individualism as long as we are conditioned.
        Conditioned – meaning to be captive in your isolation.
        As long as we are victims of this Illusion of being separated, there can´t exist any real individuality either. We are all intertwined. If there is a strong sense of “us” there will naturally be a true and healthy sense of you and me. But we cannot be true individuals as long as we are isolated each one in his illusion. can you get this?

        I repeat, we are not unique as long as we live in Fear…

        I loath definitions of every kind, as definition kill life. Another thing is to be able to follow a thin thread together, and come to terms with this subject, so it actually awakens a new understanding in us now…

        Hope these words now make sense to you.

      • phop247 says:

        Julien,

        Perhaps I am not understanding this but I cannot accept that we are all exactly the same. Sure, we are all humans, we share many things, have similarities, and so forth, but I do think there is some aspect of individuality. I am not exactly sure how to describe this, but there is something different about each and every one of us, even if we share a collective consciousness or what have you. Maybe individuality is not the best word to use? Personality perhaps?

        I’m just thinking, very simply, that person X differs from person Y although X and Y share Z. That is the sort of logic I am considering here. It’s like all the different flavors of ice cream, for example. Yes vanilla and chocolate are both ice cream, but yet they are still different.

        So as I said, maybe I am misinterpreting things, but I still hold my assertion that people have an element of uniqueness about them. We are all still people, of course, but we have our peculiarities.

        Does this make sense?

        Please let me know either way!

        Thanks and good dialogue here – Richard I will respond to you as well, just give me a moment please.

        Best,

        -Paul

  2. hakesplace says:

    I’ll try also.
    Evil is the opposite of non-Evil. So, we have good and evil, day and night, this and that, dichotomies created by the ego. It is in this realm of the ego that such dichotomies exist. Without this separation from the “other,” all is one. So, “I theorize” that in the world of oneness–no ego–there is no evil. Thus, in answer to your question, it is the separation that causes the illusion.
    Make sense?

    • seeingwhatis says:

      No. The opposite of evil is lack of evil. That what is real, is good. The created is “evil”, what most people are afraid of. Suffering. So, its the same coin, two sides. Evil and good is the same. Illusion and absence of illusion.

      • hakesplace says:

        I see. Thank you for the insight.

      • seeingwhatis says:

        What do I know. Nothing, that’s what I know. Don’t pay any attention to my mediocre comments. All the best!

      • hakesplace says:

        I pay attention to everything–keeping an open mind. What matters is that we enjoy the journey. 😉

      • seeingwhatis says:

        Total attention to everything would have the same result as ignoring all on the level of form. Total liberation. My question to you:
        Is that possible?
        People tried this absoluteness in other areas. Such as fulfilling all needs. And I don’t know if the last one ever resulted in seeing through illusion once and for all.
        I also like flowers, but doesn’t it spring from the root. And that we can’t even see.
        This answer reflects your kind heartedness, and really doesn’t come from me. It came from you.

      • hakesplace says:

        I understand–it is like the action of no-action. You see all but see nothing. You say all but say nothing. And so forth. Total liberation is impossible in this material realm as there will always be “something” attempting to bind and blind you–so some argue. Others argue that it is possible. My answer: for me it has been impossible to liberate myself from certain actions, behaviors and what-not. For me, knowing fractal geometry, Chaos Theory, quantum mechanics and the like, nothing is absolute. All is relative. How can one fulfill all needs if one does not even know what one really needs? You see? It is all about the premise. If we don’t know the premise, we can do nothing–i’m going by chaos theory, quantum physics and similar theories. Again, there are no absolutes as there are so many interpretations and theories. How can we say one is right? Are we illusion? Some venture to say we are but left over frequencies of dust; others that we are halograms. Are these not illusions? As for my kind heartedness–some say I’m evil–haha. I try to empathize. If we are one, then it came from me. If we are mirrors of each other, then, it really came from you. 😉

      • seeingwhatis says:

        😉
        You are smart but not that smart.
        What you say is elementary, and I totally agree with all but a few:
        What’s left when seeing that there are only false assumptions is not the highs particle, but really just “that which is” wether you get it or not. It is there. And you see it INSTANTLY, once you let go of your hang ups, the illusions. Which is a lot, most, but not “all there is”.
        I know for a fact this is possible. But not for you.
        You have to surrender. Then you will se that you never existed.
        You were just a dream.
        This is real.

      • hakesplace says:

        Beware of being “lost in your rightness.” 😉

      • julienmatei says:

        I just wrote a post about that, down below!

      • hakesplace says:

        I’m going to go read it.

    • julienmatei says:

      It makes perfect sense, as it coincides with my reflections on this.

      It is a difficult question though and I will get back to it – what is baffling is that without Separation
      this world of senses as we know it, wouldn´t exist. Everything on this level exists as a counterpoint of another contrast. What´s the ultimate purpose of this purposely created separation is hard to grasp…

      We are separated, we are not separated – we never left our real abode, but we are also here…

      As the big mystics say, what we call God choose “to separate” Itself in order to create this world of ours…

      • hakesplace says:

        it may be a stream of consciousness that although separated is still connected by a very thin thread. all is the thing and the no-thing. will words really grasp what we are trying to grasp?

      • julienmatei says:

        As always, we are facing the Big Mystery here…Words are the outcome of linear thinking, a part of The Illusion…our tools are so limited…

        The Grand Design is so powerfully illogical and mind-blowing, so most likely the most surreal poem, would be more suited to convey what we are trying here to assess…

        As you said, we enjoy the journey, I enjoy this meaningful interconnection here…

      • hakesplace says:

        Me too as always Julien. 🙂

    • seeingwhatis says:

      Hakesplace,
      When I said “not for you” I meant “not for you as the individual you belive your self to be” .
      Putting value in accumulated knowledge lead me to the maybe false occlusion that ou were not entirely liberated. As I see it, if It was false, no harm done. Then you won’t mind.
      Otherwise you can use this information. You know the saying, blessed are your enemies for from them you can learn a lot about your self… something like that.
      I appreciated your conclusions and were only trying to sort things out. I really meant that you seem to know a lot.
      But beeing kind is not always to do right.
      Finally, I don’t belive a word I say, neither should you. Read my last post and that would be clear enough. Truely, there is no riceousness on my part, neither any sense of beeing offended. Surry if it came through like that. Didn’t mean any harm. / Avaloki

      • hakesplace says:

        Avaloki, no harm done. 🙂
        If you notice the name of my blog, it is HakesVirtualCafe. It is a place where anyone can “shoot the breeze.” No formalities unless you want to. Besides that, I’m quite crazy and insane. :b
        Chin up! All is good. 😉

      • seeingwhatis says:

        Actually I enjoyed this conversation, its the latent troublemaker that comes to life I guess. Maybe we can’t funcion properly without a certain amount of social competence. As I see it we need nothing, so the chance is little I’ll adjust. Well, enough said. I probably need to shut up. And maybe there is a possibility to get lost and do harm by acting roceouss even though there were no such intention. I will really concider it. Thanks for letting me know. Ciao. 😉

      • hakesplace says:

        There is a possibility to get lost and do no harm to others, but you will do harm to yourself–some say anyway. I say do as you wish as long as it makes you happy and it does no harm to others. Let’s chat again soon. 🙂

      • seeingwhatis says:

        Thanks for your concern. To keep quiet may be something for me to concider.
        / Avaloki

  3. hakesplace says:

    Let me add that in that “world of oneness” there is no good either–there are no dichotomies. There is indifference to such states. Make sense?

    • goldennuggetde says:

      Thanks for Yours. I absolutely agree …… although I can’t really follow with my mind or reason. But that’s okay, I guess 🙂

  4. SprinklinThoughts says:

    Evil is the effect… separation may be the cause… Ego is just a player…

    • julienmatei says:

      i do agree with you, and as I said above I will write a post about Separation and Oneness. But for the time being: If Separation is the Cause…what is behind this very Cause…? I am not playing with words.

      • SprinklinThoughts says:

        “what is behind this very Cause…?”
        Life… that which gives us this ‘dimension’, exists in using itself to separate (display) itself into an infinite number of pieces and patterns so that in the separateness we can see the unity.
        M

      • julienmatei says:

        Good answer.
        Tks!

  5. seeingwhatis says:

    There is no evil.
    Only mind labels things evil.
    The mind labeling this as evil is the vet definition of that we call evil.
    There is creation, and all creation is this suffering.
    The creator-god was seen as an evil good origionally, called demiurgen.
    But creation is also part of the whole.
    Suffering does not exist.
    Only a believer give life to this illusion.

  6. julienmatei says:

    To you who participate in this I will say again what I just said to Paul:

    I heard some slight tone of animosity in Seeingwhatis last answer to Hakesplace.

    As long as we are victims of this Illusion of being separated, there can´t exist any real individuality either. We are all intertwined. If there is a strong sense of “us” there will naturally be a true and healthy sense of you and me. But we cannot be true individuals as long as we are isolated each one in his illusion.

    It is the illusion of words, of being right ot wrong. Let´s not get stuck in meaningless semantics,
    let´s stay watchful and lucid. Everyone has its own particular way of grasping which is neither better nor worse…

    I repeat: nobody is right, nobody is wrong!

    • hakesplace says:

      I can resonate with that.

    • seeingwhatis says:

      Julien. If you are going to tell people what they are allowed to say, then this forum will produce only slightly more insight then the average world.
      Truth is not nice.
      The fact is no one wants it.
      No one wants you to be free.

      There also were no animosity on my part, of any kind. That would, I presume, include someone feeling this animosity, and I didn’t.
      I don’t feel.
      I tell the truth aftet my relaive ability to do so. It may be very limited, this ability.
      But I don’t lie.
      I can not lie.
      I can shut up though 🙂
      So if you don’t want any more truth or supposed animosity, just give me the word.
      If I have stepped on any soar toe… So be it.
      Why is there a feeling of beeing badly treated in the first place. There is only a feeling and we believe it into existence. So my advice, for what its worth, is to use this feeling to identify the whereabouts of the ego.
      Love your blog BTW. Love you. But nevertheless.

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